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A recent thing happened where WS didn't tell me about an activity until a few weeks after it become a regular occurrence. This activity was a point of contention a year ago, but I've moved out, and I wouldn't care as much today (I found out via shared financial records, and he owned up to it). That said, his hiding it for a few weeks bothers me because it indicates that he's still acting from a place of fear of consequences.

Where is the line between anxiety and cowardice? It takes courage to face up to your actions, especially when you know that you've done something wrong (morally speaking) or hurtful. The more I think about WS's behavior during his LTA and in 2.5 years since, the more I feel like he's a big chicken. He is so afraid of upsetting me that he'd rather just avoid confrontation. After dday2, he deleted his secret message stash (the one with his AP) because he was terrified of the consequences of me finding out. This meant that later on, he couldn't prove he was telling the truth about some of my questions.

He definitely has an anxious attachment style, but I think that's separate from a lack of courage to own up to his behavior. The former means he needs a lot of reassurance that he is loved and appreciated, which comes from insecurity about himself. The latter is driven more by fear of loss, which I interpret as wanting to avoid pain/discomfort. Is it fair to call this cowardice? Is someone who sneaks around fundamentally working from an unhealthy relationship with fear?

I think fear plays a large part in many As. I believe my W had a fear of whatever is in front of her.

She's very strong intellectually, and she had no trouble shutting down men, but emotionally and socially, she had no way to confront any new challenge - like a woman who was intent on seducing her. W was just afraid to say 'No.' And once she complied at one time, fear of exposure (by ow) kept her in the A. She really damaged her health, and fear of the consequences to her health was the catalyst for ending her A.

She's a lot less afraid of saying 'No' now.

IMO, you've identified a big problem that needs to be resolved by your WS. He's the only one who can do the work. Is he committed?

*****

IMO, there's a big payoff to conquering fear of conflict. Doing so allows a person to avoid something they don;t want and negotiate how to get something they do want.

*****

I'm OK calling it 'cowardice.' But I obviously was willing to R with someone who adopted courage and gave up the cowardice. Courage, after all, isn't the absence of fear - it's saddling up despite the fear, as a former SIer used to say.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:35 PM, Sunday, May 4th]

Lots of cowardice in all WS. Cowards for not confronting their own issues. For not being honest with their BS, especially after DDAY. cowards for not committing to R or going to therapy.

sisoon, totally agree that courage isn't a lack of fear but rather doing something in spite of the fear.

IMO, you've identified a big problem that needs to be resolved by your WS. He's the only one who can do the work. Is he committed?

He claims to be committed. He's been doing IC for over a year now and he says he understands why his affairs happened and how to avoid them in future. But that's all words and ideas. He is also desperate for me not to leave him, and I think he can't control that fear response. In the same way, he acknowledges that he has self-control issues, and yet he still can't stop impulse buying.

Ah, well, I guess it's just more nails in the coffin. I feel like the only way I'm going to get unstuck from these infinite loops is to D and get it over with. We have talked and talked until my chest literally hurts (I have minor lung problems). It's not getting him where I need him to be. After 4.5 years of waiting for him to change, I'm starting to feel like I'm making an ass of myself.

Conflict avoidance often plays into an affair.

I would probably avoid calling it cowardice to avoid conflict though

I feel like thisisfine.

However, I realize that anger is natural, and when someone has an affair on you the moral judgment factor on things about their personality that were there previously is not only natural, it’s unavoidable.

Avoidant personality types are often ws. We lack communication skills, conflict resolution skills, also like to avoid criticism and other things. Yes that does exist in ego. Everyone has traits that are from ego because everyone has an ego :-)

One of the things that a ws has to do as part of the work is build up those skills and become less avoidant. But saying get some courage or stop avoiding is about as effective as telling someone to calm down or stop worrying. All of the traits that we have that interfere with our peace come from something.

It’s important that a ws discovers how something became a pattern, recognize how it doesn’t serve them and then practice being different.

Being avoidant has been probably my number one issue. So much gets wrapped up in that. I was a Perfectionist to avoid criticism, a people pleaser to avoid conflict, a chameleon of sorts. Yet underneath it all was a misguided, well intentioned, loving woman.

I just couldn’t love myself. Just very recently I had a conversation with my husband, and I am talking like in the last couple of weeks. We had gone to a group dinner and he made n offhand comment about me seeming scattered and all over the place during the dinner.

I said, can you give me examples. He immediately became agitated. And that normally would shame me and shut me down in my earlier years. I took a deep breath and said "look I know why the question is triggering you. For years you were married to someone who would let that fester and I would think about it for days if not weeks. Beating myself up over all my inferior traits. That’s not who I am anymore and that’s not why I’m asking. I am just very much interested right now in upgrading my social skills and I would like to hear your thoughts" I can handle criticism now, I can handle that I am not horrible for having flaws.

He was befuddled and sat there for a moment.

I went on. "Honey, I like myself now. I think back at all the things I tortured myself about, how it eventually made me twisted and sick. Yet I am the most loving and accepting person to all the people around me." I broke into tears. "Why did I do that to myself? I am a great person. I have a lot to offer, I always have the best wishes and intentions towards everyone, yet I went round for so much of my life or ties I wasn’t good enough, that people were mad t me, that I was always in trouble, and I saw their inability to have a positive belief about me to be about me instead of that being about them."

And I sobbed, and it was like all this grief just flowed out of me.

Whether it’s about courage or avoidance, and while it’s naturally the most triggering thing to you in the world and validly. He is who he has always been. It’s manifested itself into an affair and you are right to merge the two together in your mind from your perspective. At the same time, from his he hasn’t gained enough awareness yet, or enough skills or practice time to eradicate this area of his life that likely originated somewhere in childhood. I am not saying have empathy, more this is what he should be working on to overcome. Not that it’s your job to manage that, but these things that are hard to accept as uo try and reconcile re actually great guideposts on how you can tell they have done the work and are now safe for you.

Was I a coward? Maybe. I mean, there were fears he would leave me if I did this or that, it certainly doesn’t offend me if someone wants to label it that. . But I think I was underdeveloped. And it served in derailing my life until I had no choice but to see it. I suspect the same with your husband, he should talk to his therpist so it can be traced.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:44 PM, Tuesday, May 6th]

That's fair, hikingout. And LOL thisisfine!

Underdeveloped coping skills, I guess? To be fair, I am *super* conflict avoidant in general, but when there's a relationship I'm trying to maintain, I will try to air out grievances before they get too big or else just let the thing go.

One of the things I admired about WS when we first met (in college) was how well he could handle interpersonal conflict - with his parents, friends, ex-girlfriends. I was amazed because I was so terrible at it that I would just avoid it. I felt like I learned from his example. I think that's why his avoidance during and after the affair has taken me aback. It really makes me feel like I don't really know who he is (after 30 years!).

I think you hit the nail on the head- when someone cheats it calls into question who they are and if you ever really knew them at all.

I don’t necessarily think that I was mousy our whole marriage, to be clear. In fact I was a CEO at the time of my affair, so I think to the outside world I looked strong. But I was quick to make bad compromises and too selfless. I didn’t have a pattern of depression. I never envisioned I would ever cheat, nor was I ever interested in ogling men or bad with boundaries. I was to everyone in the outside world a successful thriving person.

But my deficits showed up when I hit this place in life and a lot of things coming at once. This is where things kind of collapsed. And that’s where My avoidance showed up full force. I simply didn’t want to deal with my life anymore. Affairs are escapism. But they lead to levels of shame that are hard to overcome. The avoidance just amplifies.

And on the other side of it the image I portrayed of this successful high functioning person, it’s now evident to me that was me being a perfectionist and a people pleaser. I had lost myself in the roles I played and the image I worked hard to project. You can’t live yourself if you don’t even see yourself anymore.

All this to say sometimes when the person you are married to has lost their sense of self, what they are trying to escape is themselves. And the reason that there is this feeling of not knowing them is because they don’t know or understand themselves anymore.

And this might not describe your husband. But it’s my interpretation that we get on autopilot, we sleep walk, and suddenly that manifests in all sorts of ways. Some people will navigate that without being destructive. Those who are avoidant will not navigate it at all. They take their hands off the wheel and crash the car so to speak.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:28 PM, Wednesday, May 7th]

The irony I see is that I fell for W2b because of her independence, strength, ability to share rather than argue, ability to address issues as they came up ... and after I started to show interest, she became co-dependent and appeasing. I didn't notice the shift - why would I? She was doing stuff I liked.

I wonder if co-d is simultaneously both cowardly and courageous - cowardly because giving into the fear of conflict is cowardly, and courageous, because IMO it takes courage to continue to keep going while thinking one is just not worthy of getting one's needs met.