SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I cannot speak to others’ ability to remember their D-day and the frightful days, months, and years following as to how every disclosed event truly occurred or words spoken as they actually were said.

However, with the help of others on this site, a new perspective for me to examine has started to emerge. I’m beginning to understand, much, much too late, that my recollections about my wife’s affair is a combination of what she voluntarily disclosed and what I pressed her to involuntary disclose. As I staggered my way through the stages of trickled truths, shock, disbelief and grief, I persuasively blended all information into a bitter tasting, fetid puree, with the added acidic spice of my own torrid imagination which I invented in a desperate attempt to fill in the blanks. As the years slid into decades, I really cannot fully separate the synthesis of these three – voluntarily disclosures, involuntarily disclosures, and imagined disclosures.

If it is true that I am acting based on ruminations that are a combination of facts given, facts forgotten, facts withheld, facts denied, facts remembered, facts misinterpreted, facts imagined, then where does truth exist? Is it fair to my wife to stubbornly cling too and rely on these Nija blended, incongruent ingredients that are now blended facts? Seriously, can one ever un-blend time lapsed truths once they are merged with partial truths and invented lies?

Do not get me wrong, I am a true believer in review for without it, how can we improve? However, as in my case, when my reexamining became chronic and my habitual recall that has for decades resisted proper resolve, what is the possibility of full closure and final reconciliation?

I am not offering answers, just fussing over this one question: Have I been stuck for decades because I chose to rely on the deceit of emulsified facts?

Asterisk

I am a true believer in review for without it, how can we improve?

It absolutely makes sense that we need to look at the past to know where we’ve been and where we are going so we can plan for the future. In short, make smart decisions.

So I’ve been asking myself the question, what is the absolute minimum we need to consider about the past in order to make those smart decisions? What is the least we need to think about it and still get the important stuff?

Whatever that is, that’s how much we should think about it. That much, and no more. Anything more is literally extra pain, and time wasted not being here.

voluntarily disclosures, involuntarily disclosures, and imagined disclosures

I’d be willing to bet that the total amount of imagined disclosures exceeds the voluntary and involuntary ones by many, many, many orders of magnitude.

the deceit of emulsified facts

The crazy thing is this applies to life before D-Day too.

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[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 1:40 PM, Wednesday, November 26th]

I am over 3 years out from Dday and I can't imagine being stuck like that for decades. I do understand that each one of us handles this process in our own ways. Me and my wife are both in our late 60's and to tell you the truth I don't want to waste anymore time on something that I can't change. Do I believe she has told me everything, no. I don't buy the loss of memory thing either. Knowing she is holding back somethings will always have me keeping my guard up somewhat. I have realized that Infidelity changes everything in your relationship and it's really up to you if you want to live with those changes. I ruminate too but again this is one of the changes we deal with after infidelity. My wife's affair lasted for 15 years and for most marriages that is a death sentence but every situation is unique to the people involved with their strengths and weaknesses. Infidelity has crushed me but it made me stronger too. I have decided to not live my life as a prisoner to the past as I now live in the present living a changed marriage where all of our flaws are exposed. The affair happened and I will never get the full story and I have learned to accept that and move forward. My health and my happiness needed me to move through and process all of this. I can only hope and pray that you find a way to get through it too. Because if I can work through a 15 year affair then anyone should be able to work through theirs's.

I'm no expert on Infidelity but I am a survivor!

Lost1313

...where does truth exist?

In the hazy recesses of your wife's memory. I think you know that.

Is it fair to my wife to stubbornly cling too and rely on these Nija blended, incongruent ingredients that are now blended facts?

She could answer this question far better than I could, that much I know for certain.

Go to The Healing Library's articles tab. In the first section, "discovery / confrontation," is "Joseph's Letter."

Currently reading a behavioral economics book "Noise" that you might find useful, if theoretical, on this topic.

I’ve used a mental picture of a house of cards to describe the way the betrayed attempt to reconstruct what happened in the betrayal. It is based on the unreliable testimony of a known liar who is highly motivated to keep lying. On top of that they are self deceptive, probably to a degree even they don’t realize. And on top of that they are forgetful, as every human is. One of the cruelties of infidelity is we can never fully know. That is not a pass for the wayward to honestly disclose everything they remember, but it is a reality.

My advice to people has been to carefully assemble your house of cards as well as you can. Have the wayward write everything down, with as much verifying evidence as possible. Use the unstable structure to try to quiet your tortured mind. If it does, great. If the wayward refuses to make a good faith effort, or they collapse the cards with lies or trickle truth, walk away. As you’ve sadly experienced, time doesn’t heal this wound.

My husband had an 18 month affair with our employee which mostly happened in our house. Now, the last several months of that affair weren’t as physical because we were home on the Covid shutdown but there was at least a solid year of seeing this woman at 5-6 hours a day and sex many times a week.

I will never know all the details. The things they said. What things she did he may have liked better than the way I do it, or if I do it at all.

I understand the feelings you have.

How I have gotten through that is by deciding it doesn’t matter.

Whatever they experienced was real but also it wasn’t. It didn’t exist with a partnership in which they must pay bills together, raise kids, run errands, celebrate holidays, love each others extended family, take care of one another when sick, know each other when they were young, share stories of cute things their kids did, make major purchases together, support each other through hard times like losing a job or having to figure out how to pay an unexpected big expense. They never went to parties together, never shared friends or pets or material items. They never went clothes shopping together or a parent-teacher conference. They never traveled the country together for years or even took a vacation together.

There is a richness to living life with someone you love. And when it comes to her all that remains is shame and regret, and reminders of his lowest version of himself. There is nothing to have pride in or to look back and see a journey.

They had sex and told each other whatever lies they needed to in order to keep it going. I decided the details of that were far less interesting than all the ones we share together. And when one of us dies we will look back at a life shared with the love of our life. And when that remaining person thinks of either AP I can only imagine thinking their trivial role in our spouses life pales in comparison to the giant hole it put in our marriage that somehow we loved each other enough to survive together.

They are a footnote in a very long story that I have to let be way bigger.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:20 PM, Wednesday, November 26th]

Do not get me wrong, I am a true believer in review for without it, how can we improve?

I have a story about that that may help . My H had his A while working alone overseas. I had time stamped receipts...work records...emails...texts...skype...phone records...etc. I could practically tell almost to the minute when my H and the adultery co-conspirator were together. I literally made a calendar for the 68 days from the time they met until the time he left her country. My H was never good at remembering dates but he gave me details of events such as where they met the first time...which restaurant they had eaten at when they kissed for the first time...things like that. The only thing I couldn't get were their feelings...emotions...etc.

Every year on here at the start of A season...I would get on my calendars and go through them. My "family" and friends on here would put up with my ramblings as I would go over in great detail EXACTLY what my H and his adultery co-conspirator were doing at that particular time in their A . EVERY...FREAKING...YEAR. No one else in our family knows about my H's A...so I would do this as a sort of therapy...it was cathartic for me...at least that is what I thought.

One year my Lil Bro (Unhinged), challenged me to STOP doing this. He saw something I couldn't...that it was actually keeping the wound from healing. I pushed back...it WAS healing...because I was able to look at this through eyes of LOGIC now...the emotions weren't fueling this anymore!!! I had actually even found MORE evidence that year! My H had told me that he and the adultery co-conspirator never PLANNED their first meeting...it just happened. SURE IT DID . But THAT year I saw that he had eaten at a sushi restaurant around 5:30pm. He then called me a little after 6pm. Then he drove to meet up with the adultery co-conspirator at another sushi restaurant around 8:30pm. I could easily picture in my head that they had talked after he called me...he told her he ate sushi...she said she loved sushi and knew of a restaurant she loved...and he offered to buy her sushi there. Of course...by that time my H didn't remember the exact conversation...but he always insisted that they never planned their meeting...so this was a logical scenario .

However...even though that brought clarity...it also came at a cost to ME . I realized that my Lil Bro was right (even though I would never tell him out loud )! They met...they had sex...they enjoyed each other. It HAPPENED. There is NOTHING that can be done to change that .

BUT...there is always a BUT !!! That was in the PAST. You have reviewed as MUCH as you can Dear Sir...you can move forward now . What my H is doing NOW is what COUNTS . Same with your wife . There are some Waywards that aren't deserving of R. My 1st H was one. But we can ALL be redeemable IF we choose redemption . I gave my H MERCY. It was up to HIM to decide what he was going to do. I had survived D before and I knew I could do it again. YOU are the only one to decide this about your wife. NONE of us on here can make that CHOICE for you. We can tell you what WE did...but each of our stories are unique...just like yours.

Have I been stuck for decades because I chose to rely on the deceit of emulsified facts?

No Sir. YOU get to choose when YOU can move forward . However, even your wife doesn't have ALL of the facts Dear Sir. I apologize for this LONG post but I have another story...sorry! On Dday after my H confessed...I immediately told him the M was over. Within an hour though we were talking about R. I didn't know about SI then. I issued ultimatums to my H in order to consider R...and the first one was that he was to write a NC message to the adultery co-conspirator. He wrote in the NC message that even though what they had was real...that I was the one who made him happy. I thought that was odd. When I asked him what that meant he told me that the adultery co-conspirator told him that ALL she wanted was for HIM to be HAPPY...even if it wasn't with HER. YES...he really believed that ! I didn't say anything but I KNEW that was a lie!!! He told me that the adultery co-conspirator was just like me because she was so nice .

The next morning the adultery co-conspirator had written back. OH MY GOSH was she ever LIVID! How DARE he say that I made him HAPPY!!! Didn't he realize that SHE was the only one who could make him HAPPY?! She was going to write ME a letter and choose her words carefully. After I read her letter and left him then he would see that SHE was the only one who was right for him !! He put her through HELL and she was going to do the same thing to him!

I swear...whatever was left of that fantasy affair bubble POPPED right then and there...and God gave me the Blessing of watching it happen . My H couldn't believe that the adultery co-conspirator LIED to him . You can't make this stuff up!! So Dear Sir...your wife has emulsified facts in HER head too that isn't the TRUTH...I gar-on-tee (in my best Justin Wilson accent). The adultery co-conspirator does as well. As do you.

So if you want...make those emulsified facts be in your favor . One BW on here thought about how her H and the adultery co-conspirator would have a glass of wine each time they met. Then she started thinking about how the adultery co-conspirator was now drinking that glass of wine...alone...with tears slowing running down her cheeks...and slipping into the wine glass. Is it a fact? It is as much of a fact as some of the things you are ruminating about...so turn them more positive . In fact...turn NOW into positive . You won't regret it...I gar-on-tee !!!

Have I been stuck for decades because I chose to rely on the deceit of emulsified facts?

It seems that you have come to that realization on your own . If you need some help...you have my permission to move forward . It's OK...taking that leap is SCARY...but coming over to the other side of infidelity is BEAUTIFUL!!! One thing though...BOTH parties have to be ALL IN for R to work. If you feel that you are BOTH that way...GO FOR IT !!!

When someone is forced to piece together truth from voluntary disclosures, pressured disclosures, omissions, and imagination filling the gaps, the result always becomes a blended, unstable version of reality.

And I think you’re right, once those pieces mix, you can’t fully "un-blend" them years later. But that doesn’t mean you were choosing deceit — it means you were coping with an impossible situation. You were building a story with the ingredients you had in the kitchen at that time.

The real question, to me, isn’t whether you relied on "emulsified facts" — rather, were you ever given the conditions where clarity, safety, and closure were even possible?

And no, it isn’t unfair to your wife that your mind held onto the only version of the story it had access to. Closure requires truth, safety, and consistency. If those things weren’t available to you — and from what you’ve described, they weren’t — then it’s understandable that your mind kept trying to solve a puzzle that was missing pieces. The loops became chronic and that’s trauma doing exactly what trauma does.

You’re holding yourself responsible for an outcome created by the conditions you were put in.
Closure wasn’t possible if the truth was never clean.

Unless you have carefully constructed written notes then yes, your decades later recall has been tarnished by some unknown set of variables that you capture an image of in your post. There really is no doubt about that. Whether your recall is 5% tainted or 35%, who knows?

Ever seen the Kurosawa film Rashomon? It's a classic and may be worth your time.

HouseOfPlane,

So I’ve been asking myself the question, what is the absolute minimum we need to consider about the past in order to make those smart decisions? What is the least we need to think about it and still get the important stuff?
Whatever that is, that’s how much we should think about it. That much, and no more. Anything more is literally extra pain, and time wasted not being here.

You have given me another slap to the forehead moment! I think the arrow from your quiver has hit the black dot center-point.

I have spent way too much time and energy seeking what I never will find or even if I did, I wouldn’t believe it and would keep the search light on seeking truth in the darkness. I am beginning to understand it was a mistake that only served to delay my coming to terms with a past that is not my life now.

I’d be willing to bet that the total amount of imagined disclosures exceeds the voluntary and involuntary ones by many, many, many orders of magnitude.

Yes, yes! And that is a lie I manufactured and, unknowingly, have been attempting to get my wife to confirm. What the heck!!!

Asterisk

Lost1313,

I have decided to not live my life as a prisoner to the past as I now live in the present living a changed marriage where all of our flaws are exposed. The affair happened and I will never get the full story and I have learned to accept that and move forward. My health and my happiness needed me to move through and process all of this.

Whoa! 15 year affair! Thanks for sharing a part of your story here. I am so sorry.

Your quote above speaks to the new direction I am attempting to keep on track with. Acceptance of what I’ll never know or be able to change is a tricky idea but I am finding it to be worth my time to explore.

The way I used to see things was if I just got all the information, I’d be able to see and understand how my wife and my friend allowed themselves to go down the path of betrayal. And because I knew both my wife and my friend were really decent people who cared about me that if I understood the why’s then it would make sense! And if it made sense, then we all would be fine! I know, no one needs to remind me…dumb thinking.

Anyway, Lost1313 though late to the hike, I’m following in your footprints.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

...where does truth exist?

In the hazy recesses of your wife's memory. I think you know that.

You know I respect your thoughts but on this I disagree. No, I don’t "know that". What I do believe, is that her truth, my truth, is forever lost, never to be retold as it was. Some may be by design but most by our minds ability to recreate, without our permission, new scenarios.

Even though we might see this differently, I welcome, and as always I give deep consideration to your perspectives.

Asterisk

Inkhulk,

I’ve used a mental picture of a house of cards to describe the way the betrayed attempt to reconstruct what happened in the betrayal. It is based on the unreliable testimony of a known liar who is highly motivated to keep lying. On top of that they are self deceptive, probably to a degree even they don’t realize. And on top of that they are forgetful, as every human is. One of the cruelties of infidelity is we can never fully know. That is not a pass for the wayward to honestly disclose everything they remember, but it is a reality.

Exactly.

Plus, I would like to add, did I really need to know that she engaged in oral sex with him when she never allowed it with me? Did I need to hear that she saw him as a better lover than me? Was it of any value to know that they made love in our home, in OUR BED! Though I asked her these questions and so she was then obligated to be honest these were questions I wished I had never asked. All that my questions and her answered accomplished was to supply me with unnecessarily painful information that does nothing but overshadow the important stuff. The affair itself was far easier to accept and move beyond. The other crap is what really sours one's recovery and has a life shelf with no expiration date.

Asterisk

HikingOut,

Thank you for sharing more of your story with me. I believe you have placed your focus on the fullness of your marriage rather than on the betrayal. Infidelity can easily steal all the good and valuables.

They had sex and told each other whatever lies they needed to in order to keep it going. I decided the details of that were far less interesting than all the ones we share together.

I don’t believe I have ever heard it better said. Thanks for placing that thought into my consciousness, for I know it to be true in my relationship with my wife. Our story is of survival theirs withered and died on its own accord, decades ago. Sadly, its only existence is in living in my mind. Thank you for helping me grasp, it is time for the affair's unattended funeral.

Asterisk

Want2BHappyAgain,

Every year on here at the start of A season...I would get on my calendars and go through them. My "family" and friends on here would put up with my ramblings as I would go over in great detail EXACTLY what my H and his adultery co-conspirator were doing at that particular time in their A . EVERY...FREAKING...YEAR. No one else in our family knows about my H's A...so I would do this as a sort of therapy...it was cathartic for me...at least that is what I thought.
One year my Lil Bro (Unhinged), challenged me to STOP doing this.

"Lil Bro Unhinged" I like that! And yep, he’s known to me for a great challenge!!! Which makes him especially important to my work to be done.

But dang, you had a calendar with dates and times and would pull that out for review. Yikes, I thought my internal calendar was rough but having it all in black and white….

BUT...there is always a BUT !!! That was in the PAST. You have reviewed as MUCH as you can Dear Sir...you can move forward now . What my H is doing NOW is what COUNTS . Same with your wife . There are some Waywards that aren't deserving of R. My 1st H was one. But we can ALL be redeemable IF we choose redemption .

Love the smiley faces. Yes, if so chosen redemption is nearly always possible. It is hard work but, in at least our case, worth ever effort.

So if you want...make those emulsified facts be in your favor . One BW on here thought about how her H and the adultery co-conspirator would have a glass of wine each time they met. Then she started thinking about how the adultery co-conspirator was now drinking that glass of wine...alone...with tears slowing running down her cheeks...and slipping into the wine glass. Is it a fact? It is as much of a fact as some of the things you are ruminating about...so turn them more positive

You know, though I get the logic behind wanting a spouse’s affair partner to suffer I never have desired it. I don’t want to want to see him in the type of pain they both caused themselves and their spouses. He was a good friend, until he wasn’t. Just like my wife was a good wife, until she wasn’t. I don’t want my wife to suffer and I don’t want my friend to suffer. I find no relief or pleasure in the visual of "tears running down his face".
Asterisk

HeartBrokenWife23,

When someone is forced to piece together truth from voluntary disclosures, pressured disclosures, omissions, and imagination filling the gaps, the result always becomes a blended, unstable version of reality.
And I think you’re right, once those pieces mix, you can’t fully "un-blend" them years later. But that doesn’t mean you were choosing deceit — it means you were coping with an impossible situation. You were building a story with the ingredients you had in the kitchen at that time.

I respond well to analogies and "ingredients you had in the kitchen at the time" was a great one. My only question is, did I choose deceit or did it choose me? I think I unwisely chose it.

You’re holding yourself responsible for an outcome created by the conditions you were put in.
Closure wasn’t possible if the truth was never clean.

Yes, I am. And I think I should. It is true I did not create the situation, but I am responsible for my response to the situation. That is not, in any way, excusing my wife of her responsibility to do the work she needs to do. And I believe she is attempting and failing as I am attempting and failing to do it all correctly. But, we are on this uncharted journey united.

Asterisk

Trdd,

Whether your recall is 5% tainted or 35%, who knows?

I’d say, closer to the 35% would be more accurate. Thanks for the suggested film.

Asterisk

But dang, you had a calendar with dates and times and would pull that out for review. Yikes, I thought my internal calendar was rough but having it all in black and white….

I was obsessed and had to know EVERYTHING . TMI...but I even went so far as to find images of female vaginas so that my H could point out which one looked the closest to the adultery co-conspirator . I felt if I knew as much as I could it would help me to overcome this. Certain things DID help...to a point. But there were obviously some things that I really didn't need to know .

Love the smiley faces.

I like to use them a lot . Someone wrote to tell me how to use other emojis...but I forgot how to do it. It is in the "Thankful Thursday" thread though...so I will look it up one day and then watch out...I will flood my posts with flowers and hearts again !!!

I don’t want my wife to suffer and I don’t want my friend to suffer.

I LOVE THIS !! This says so MUCH about your character . I apologize...I haven't followed your journey on here and didn't realize the adultery co-conspirator was a good friend of yours. You can still make those emulsified facts go in your favor...in a POSITIVE way . From what you have written...you tend to be more positive...or at least WANT to be that way...and for ME...that was a KEY factor in my healing.

My H told me that the adultery co-conspirator told him that he was actually her 3rd A . According to her...her 1st A was with her Aunt's boyfriend because she had admired him since she was a child. Her 2nd A was with her boss because she thought he was hot. This A was when she was married. When her H found out...he left her. She was single about 2 years when she had her A with my H because he was an American and she was obsessed with everything America. To ME...it seemed like the Aunt's boyfriend was probably a predator who had groomed the adultery co-conspirator from the time she was a child. So she had a skewed version of what "romance" looked like. Emulsified facts? Maybe. But I started praying for her...that God would heal whatever it was that made her feel it was alright to be USED like that. This was HER word...she told my H that she felt like a USED...USELESS...NOBODY. It is hard to feel negative toward someone you are praying for .

I am also an ocean away...so I will probably never meet the adultery co-conspirator. I don't have any physical landmarks that would trigger me here in the United States either. Others may have to come up with other strategies that will help them in their situation. As I have often say on here...whatever HELPS the BS to HEAL...as long as it is legal ...DO IT !!!

Want2BHappyAgain,

Side note. Reading your tag line, it sounds as if you have been successful and can now go by HappyAgain! It is helpful to read about successes.

I felt if I knew as much as I could it would help me to overcome this. Certain things DID help...to a point. But there were obviously some things that I really didn't need to know

I believed the same thing until I read many posts and comments here and now, I amhaving many slaps to my forehead moments. I know too much. Rewriting may be a plan, but I just don’t see how that is accomplished.

I will flood my posts with flowers and hearts again !!!

And I will enjoy everyone of them.

…didn't realize the adultery co-conspirator was a good friend of yours. You can still make those emulsified facts go in your favor...in a POSITIVE way

Honestly, what would help turn this situation into a better, more positive situation, is if I had the opportunity to reconcile with my friend as well. Just like my wife, he is not a terrible person. I’m not saying I want to be good friends again, though that would not be off the table, only that I hate that there is this unfinished business between him and I. He may not want to reconcile and that would be the end of it. But if he has regrets then I would like to be involved in his healing of those regrets.

…HappyAgain, Unlike you, I am not a follower of faith anymore, but I still endorse the notion that "…we all fall short…" the rest of that line I do not subscribe to. But I am sure you get my meaning.

Asterisk