SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your MC is worse than incompetent

.

Incompetent or they know that if they try to hold your WW accountable that will be the end of MC, and the end of your billing. Still, never attribute to malice… no shortage of counselors who have no business dealing with infidelity.

[This message edited by asc1226 at 10:59 PM, Saturday, November 1st]

She's using you, most likely as a live-in nanny and housekeeper. The fact that she turns everything back on you is a telltale sign of an abuser. She's using emotional abuse to keep you stuck.

Have you considered that you might be codependent? A lot of partners of addicts are. It seems to me that you are taking on all the responsibility for the marriage and family. That seems codependent to me.

I understand being afraid of losing the life you have. A big change like that is scary. Sometimes, it has to be done for your health.

I stayed for the kids and to maintain my life. I am the SAHP. After Dday, I also stayed for a bit of revenge. My husband is military. There's a lot of suspicion in the military of spouses staying for the benefits and such. My husband accused me of that shortly after Dday. It was one of his justifications. So, I decided to show him how it would be if I stayed for the money and easy life.

I stopped doing everything except taking care of my kids. I don't cook anymore. I rarely clean or do laundry. I left it all to him. He seemed to be clueless. He's the codependent one, so he just took on everything.

My advice is probably the same as everyone else. Get an attorney. Tell her to leave. Move yourself into another room, or move her into another room. You leaving is tricky when it comes to divorce. It can be seen as abandonment of your kids and your home. Don't engage with her except about business type matters, like bills. No emotional engagement. Cut her off, and file for divorce.

I wish you well.

Thanks Coco. I think I’m not very codependent. I am a dedicated parent and that has led to me taking care of my girls.

I am fairly sure that you are correct that the situation is abusive or at least she is using me. I have found this a difficult situation for people to recognize.

I often ask for outside opinion to avoid making an emotional, rash decision. I have found most of my close friends incapable of recognizing abuse of this sort against me as a man. I have heard so many friends ask "how are you going to win her back?" WTF

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Riverswithfish:

I know this is the Reconciliation forum so I am going to try to be gentle here... but two years without any intimacy since your WW's affairs? She has shown to you that she has no boundaries or respect for the marital vows, I agree with the poster above that she's most likely still having an affair or random ONS(s.) I equate sex in marriage to like a bathroom in a house-- no one would purchase a house for the sole reason that the house has an incredible master bathroom (i.e. great sex); on the other hand, no one would buy a house that didn't have a bathroom at all. Who could live like that?

Your WW has shown you she isn't going to change, not after two years of you accepting this abuse. Why should she? She has the dutiful spouse that is a great homemaker and parent while she works and travels and is free as a bird to do what she wants while traveling.

(Note the following paragraph- while I am an attorney, I am not licensed in Oregon and I am not your attorney) While Oregon isn't a community property state it is an equitable division state. First off, since you're the primary caretaker for the children you should be awarded primary custody therefore your WW would have to pay child support for at least the next 10 years? (Your youngest is 7/8, right?) Further, Oregon does allow for alimony and adultery can influence certain spousal support and marital division that a judge can award. I think you may have been scared off by your initial consultations with the 2 attorneys because it is common for divorce attorneys to not raise their clients' expectations in the initial consultation-- they want their clients to have low expectations going into the case so anything more and the attorney looks like they've earned their fee. Google local Men's Rights divorce attorney and maybe have a couple more consultations. Also start documenting your WW's drinking.

Next, what are you doing to take care of yourself? Seems you're concentrating on your kids which is great but they are now 11 and 7-- both in school, right? You talk about being willing to pursue your WW, screw that! Make her start to pursue you! Are you exercising? Do you go to the gym? Get yourself into the gym- an actual 24-hour gym, not a set of weights in the garage. Start going to the gym early in the morning so you can be back to wake the kids and get them to school. It might suck if you're not a morning person but you'll change and adapt. Don't tell your WW where you're going, she'll know by how you're dressed. If she asks, just reply "going out" and leave. Hit the weights if you've never worked out before start slowly but stay at it. Alternate chest/shoulders/arms one day and legs and back the other day. Throw in some light cardio and abs ever day (heck, your girls are old enough to walk/run/bike with you in the evening, so take them with you and make it a bonding time) Only take 1 rest day a week. And eat clean- diet is so much more important if you're trying to lose weight (you can't out train your fork.) You'll start to see results in a matter of 3-4 weeks. Now your WW may be so far gone that she doesn't care, if so, then you have your ultimate answer. Get rid of the dad body if you have one, you'll feel so much better about yourself and feel so much more confident. Stay at it and you'll start to notice women doing double takes and giving you the side eye while you're out. And if your WW is with you she'll notice them too.

After a month or so at the gym, text your WW during the week that she needs stay home on Friday because you and some friends from the gym are going "Out." Hell, maybe you even made some new friends at the gym and you really do go out with them on Friday. Maybe you haven't but still go "out" by yourself...turn off your phone locator and head out- bookstore, movie, coffee shop.. anywhere but your house. Get home around midnight, take a shower and go straight to bed. May even look into joining a local CrossFit group, they have lots of outside social events you can take advantage of. Make it a point to always be going "out" most of the time with your kids, sometimes just yourself-- but change your routine!

According to you, she has been getting:

Fashionable clothes, concerts, travel with friends (we used to travel together), beauty regiments, facials, hair appointments that cost a fortune.

You know a lot of those things, men can get as well, right? After a few weeks in the gym, treat yourself to a therapeutic massage (sore muscles need tending too)-- a real massage, not at a cheap happy-ending place. But do make sure it's a female masseuse, God knows you're starving for a female's touch (and an ethical substitute for a RA) and remember her name so you can tell your WW if she asks. And if she does ask, sigh contentedly and talk wistfully about the masseuse's magical hands and then ask your WW if she'd like her phone number.

Get you a new wardrobe and a new haircut. WW starts complaining about all the money being spent? Bring up her past purchases, tell her it's part of the Kept-Husband package that she wanted (and at least you're not asking for a boob job), and tell her you need all this to feel safe and to meet your emotional needs. Yep, start throwing her words back at her-- let her hear out how stupid her words sound.

Ok, is the above advice a bit immature and petty? Maybe, but it sure as hell looks like the money you've been spending on IC and MC has been wasted for the past two years. Start taking care of yourself, Riverswithfish. Your kids are first, then yourself from here on out. It seems you've been trying to fix the unfixable with your WW, end that now. Just become and show indifference to your WW. Even if you can't reach total emotional detachment and indifference because of your feelings, do your best to act like you have in front of your WW.

TAKE ACTION AND DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Dread game, NukeZombie? I would be so curious to know if that works in this situation! At the very least, Riverswithfish should do these things for himself. If the WW comes around, that's just a bonus.

I would be so curious to know if that works in this situation! At the very least, Riverswithfish should do these things for himself. If the WW comes around, that's just a bonus.

Exactly!

Make yourself a priority RiverswithFish-- right after your daughters.

What's the worse thing your WW could do to you? Withhold sex from you? LOL! Stop giving her that power over you.

NukeZombie,

Thanks for the direct suggestions! I was cracking up at your disclaimer (several of my close friends are attorneys...)

Several people have commented on this post being in the "Reconciliation" forum. That is the phase that I am supposedly in with my WW. I think the initial post was a cry for help in that context.

I am in the midst of changing up the dynamics and exploring my options in divorce. On the self care front, I've been hitting the gym consistent and hard for years. I have a dedicated workout group and we enjoy pushing each other through our HIT workout with weights and cardio (I ditched the dad-bod 9 years ago...)

As for divorce particulars, Oregon is a no-fault state. So, documentation will only relate to custody and child support. In the alimony (spousal support) area, I left my Executive Director position when we had kids and helped launch my WW's very successful lobbying business. It has been nearly 14 years and I have worked for the business, serve as an officer (incorporated) and am a shareholder. With her 500k annual revenue, I am going to get a substantial amount of assets and income. While the income will be temporary, I have no doubt that I will be able to return to work. I totally get your perspective on my consults' "under promise, over deliver" review, but I'm also sure I got the top divorce attorneys' perspectives in my area. (I got excellent referrals from my lawyering friends.)

The real question is the kids and custody. I have been home and my WW has been a tangental parent. She has never been a consistent presence that is available for the kids' activities, appointments, school, etc. A very real possibility is that the status quo will be preserved and I will have an 80/20 or 90/10 parenting split. In this case, I may be looking for part time work until the kids are out of the house.

WW and I go to the same massage therapist (she and I a great friends), but I'm not the gender she's interested in ;)
I do like this train of thinking though...

I appreciate all the perspectives, insight and advice (not legal... ) and am looking to cause a change or initiate divorce.

My thanks and appreciation for this community is emmense.

am looking to cause a change or initiate divorce

This is the best possible mindset that WILL, one way or another, result in a much improved life for you. With or without your (current) wife. The train is leaving the station. Whether she hops on board with you is up to her, and you know you will not only be ok, but that train is heading for your flourishing.

Congrats on that. So many betrayed never get there.

Congrats!

Riverswithfish:

Documentation of your WW's drinking would go directly to establishing you as the primary custodial parent for as much time as possible with the collateral result of more child support for you.

Going back to your WW's affairs, did she suffer any consequences at all? Was her affair exposed to any family members or friends? Did the kids find out in any way? Did she give you a written timeline of the affairs? Complete transparency in her electronic devices and modes of communication? Individual counseling for her to determine why she had the affairs? Anything?

During your conversations after you found out, did your WW ever ask for an open marriage? Has she told you these past two years that you can fulfil your sexual needs elsewhere? This is quite common for some waywards in order to lessen their guilt. Did you ever ask her what she would do if you had been then one to have 2 affairs and she had remained faithful?

You appear intelligent and educated. You haven't let your physical body go to pot, kept in shape 7 years before the affairs-- not that physical changes ever give a valid reason to cheat on a spouse. So, it seems to me with the info given that your WW began to be the primary breadwinner bringing home the bacon, she got to travel about and probably felt entitled to her affairs and fun. A stereotypical, old-fashioned cliche, Mad Men style affair only this time it's a female doing it.

As HO wrote above, she's lost respect for you. Sadly, in my experience, once a woman loses respect for her partner, it rarely comes back.

Even if she started to become more intimate with you, how can you look at it in any other way, as simply offering pity sex to you.

Do you really want to live like that?

[This message edited by NukeZombie at 5:23 PM, Monday, November 10th]

I agree with Nuke. Document her drinking and all the time she is away from home, anything she does without your kids.

Meeting with her GF is because they enable her to drink.
I don’t think an active alcoholic is capable of the work required to reconcile. Her having "cut back" is a bit like trying to convince yourself she’s improved because she’s hitting you with an open palm rather than her fist.
I think sobriety is key. While active her buzz has priority over everything else – marriage, business, kids... and if pressed will sacrifice any of those to keep her addiction active.

It is highly unlikely that she will get sober on her own. She would have to want to get sober and be in some supportive environment that enables her to get sober. Like AA or addiction-focused IC.

Unfortunately, her drinking isn’t going to have much impact on custody UNLESS there were official incidents showing she placed kids in danger. Like if cops stopped her driving while drunk with kids in car.
What will have more impact is that you have been the prime caregiver.

I would encourage you to do this:
Make it clear to her that her addiction/alcoholism is an issue and it’s so serious that you have realized it will prevent you two from ever having an acceptable marriage. If she refuses to acknowledge that the drinking is an issue, ask her to commit to 60 days of sobriety – where you are allowed to confirm mutual sobriety with a breathalyzer at any time as she can do to you. I can promise you right now that she will protest, and that if you can talk her into it she will be protesting when you do the test 2 weeks from now.

I think that once sober a lot of what is preventing her from contributing to the marriage might be out of the way. Right now I think her priorities might be to find out what she needs to give to the marriage to maintain a status-quo while not having to sacrifice the drinking.

Update and questions:

I had a very frustrating MC session and couple of weeks. My WW has been even more aloof than usual and not wearing wedding ring most of the time. My gut tells me (and from feedback from you all and my Al-anon group) that something is up. I did a little snooping around (not proud) and found my WW is on Zillow looking at homes/apartments in the neighborhood, has met with a "divorce coach" and is planning a week away with a girlfriend in Mexico. WW also went on a 7 hour impromptu bender with friends last week.

In our MC session yesterday I said that I am very concerned that WW is pursuing divorce or decided that the marriage is over. She always has asked that I not run off and file so we could split amicably instead of contentiously. I also expressed that her drinking has escalated again and I am doubtful we can reconcile while she is an active alcoholic.

WW response in counseling: "I have not met with a lawyer to file for divorce. I wouldn't do that without talking to you." Then she talked about her feeling hurt by a comment I made last week when I asked if she had seen our friend while we were at t a show together.

Therapist's response: breakdown of the comment and how to respond better to my WW. How to slow down our interactions and create safety for my WW to feel more comfortable. She also said that she heard me and is not ignoring me; we just are focusing on my WW's interaction with me at the show.

I was shocked and felt incredibly dismissed. I sent an email to the therapist explaining my concern that I am marginalized at home with my WW and in our sessions.

Am I missing something here? I want to be open to improving my interactions with my WW, but do not understand how each time I leave MC I have to work on not making my WW uncomfortable and my WW is encouraged to actually make time with me. MC seems so off and I feel like the constant problem and that my WW is some sort of saint. It is bizarre. Is it just time to call off the marriage?

Did you bring up the Zillow and divorce "coach" thing you found on her phone and demand an explanation for that? I'm sorry, but I feel like she's actively lying to your face and she's been checked out of the marriage for a long time... Possibly trying to get her ducks in a row and get the most out of the divorce that she can. I wouldn't trust her at all, knowing what you know, if I were in your shoes.

Edited to add: And I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the MC... I don't really think your WW should be comfortable right now. R&R is inherently uncomfortable for the WS, as we did a shitty thing and now there are shitty consequences, including, but not limited to, dealing with shame, our BS' loss of trust, seeing their pain... This MC doesn't seem all that informed or competent to be dealing with your situation.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 5:58 PM, Tuesday, November 25th]

Rivers, I wish I had something positive to say. Reconciliation with an alcoholic is not possible. She's always the victim of her story (alcoholic thinking). She's actively seeking a way out of the marriage, but she's probably terrified of having to be responsible for herself (alcoholic thinking). She's often complaining, according to what you write, that she doesn't feel safe with you and isn't comfortable and so on and so forth (alcoholic thinking).

My sister was an alcoholic. She's over 25 years sober. While I haven't been there and done that, we've had plenty of talks about it.

Right now, you're her safety net and, sorry to say this friend, her enabler.

My suggestion would be to start thinking about a separation and possibly divorce. Get your ducks in a row. Maybe she'll "see the light." Who knows.

Rivers, I'm sorry you are going through this. My suggestion is to stop MC. There's no point if your WW isn't also willing to work on herself. I agree that it's not possible to R with an active alcoholic. All you are doing is enabling her (very codependent, btw).

Are you in IC? If not, I suggest you do that instead for yourself. It seems to me that you are being indecisive. You are allowing yourself WW to treat you horribly. IC can help you with that. And, it will change the marriage one way or another. If one person changes, the dynamics have to change even if the other person does nothing.

Stop looking to the MC to hold her accountable. She has your WW’s number, as both an alcoholic and a wayward. Attempting to introduce accountability would mean the end of MC.

If that means you have to absorb a few more hits, well, who else is going to do it?