SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How do you still believe that some people are good people?

I honestly thought my spouse was kind, honest and caring. But he’s a liar and he was very cruel to me. I can’t unsee that about him, it’s not just the nastiness it’s really quite pathetic behaviour he displayed. Like a spiteful child rather than a grown adult.

He hid his behaviour well. So he could be up to anything still - I doubt I will ever trust anyone the way I trusted him again.

We are still together, I don’t see him the same way anymore.

I have made new friends. Put a lot of time each week into socialising online, in person etc. I talk to so many people. This forum is helpful as I can see other people who have been blindsided - so I presume they were honest in their relationships. I like myself and have focused on my values. But I don’t feel quite right.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

We are still together, I don’t see him the same way anymore.

How do you see him now? Obviously, before you found out, your mental model of who he was was not correct. He was somebody else. He counted on you thinking he was the incorrect one too.

What is your mental model of him now? He obviously has some bad characteristics, does he have any good characteristics? Do you think your mental model of him is more accurate now, or did you just replace the old bad one with a new equally bad one?

How do you look at him now? And by that I mean, do you actually watch him differently than you did before, now that you know you don’t know the whole truth of him?

Assuming you do watch him differently now and more closely (and you should), how does he respond to that? I know for a lot of WS it can be very disorienting to undergo that continual scrutiny. Their power over you is trust, and when that is gone, it can leave them flailing.

Great questions.

I no longer take the things he says at face value. I can take a joke and if someone jokes about me I am happy to laugh. I now question him if he ever does that. I assume it’s negative. He used to say I was really smart but now looking back I think maybe he was mocking me. He never says I’m smart anymore. I don’t care about that btw. I am happy with who I am. I’m rubbish at some things and good at others.

He on the other hand hates criticism. He has always sulked and I never mocked him for not picking things up quickly or not understanding something.

If i want to talk about something in our relationship that’s bothering me he says he feels unsafe. I think it’s pathetic. So I don’t bother mentioning it.

He’s gone from being a large part of my life. My ride and die. My future.

Is my view of him accurate? I doubt it. Does he have good points, of course, most people have good points. I think I used to look at him and give him benefit of the doubt. Now I give him none.

Do I feel he stands up for his beliefs. I’m not sure what beliefs he has. Does he have integrity? Not sure. Do I think he’d put himself in harms way to protect our kids - no i dont. I think he’s cowardly.

He likes to be seen as the good guy. He was caught cheating by me, he gas lit me for a few months making me feel like I was destroying our marriage.

Now when he tells me about how he helped someone at work and how he was empathetic and kind and how it made a difference, I just think you screwed over your kids and wife.

He is full of shame and self hatred. Always has been. I would have walked over burning coals to have helped him. I have my flaws but I really loved him.

I look at him differently. I used to think he was really cool. Now I don’t.

I get why he did it. Dopamine. Addiction issues. Fear of death. People pleaser. Low self esteem. I also get people change. Loss was always going to be my issue, I spotted that early on. And what I have lost is too big to cope with. It’s been 3 years and I still cry most days.

He was worried about time and not achieving things yet he’s put life on hold for years, for what? We used to do so much fun stuff. I’ll try anything. I plan surprises. I am not one who is stick in their ways. But the last few years have been hell on earth. And I am not the same. I won’t ever love him the same or trust him the same or see him the same. I no longer share so much with him. My relative is sick I haven’t even told him. My friend is splitting with her husband i haven’t told him.

It’s sad. But his behaviour was cowardly and pathetic and I have flashes of how can I fix this. Then I think why? For our children. I’m not sure exactly where or why I’m stuck but I’m clearly stuck!

I don’t see him as a prize. I am not ashamed of how upset and desperate i was (when I was being blamed and before i knew he was cheating). I am really at peace with myself tbh. I’ve forgiven me for being duped. But I see him very differently.

Thanks for posting

[This message edited by Abcd89 at 3:17 PM, Tuesday, December 2nd]

I married him because I loved him very much. I’m self sufficient, have a good career, am reliable, independent.

I wanted to share my life with him because I loved him. But my photos are lies. My history is painful. I don’t wear my ring. Basically my history is trashed. I don’t talk about him to anyone anymore.

I’m adopted. This shared history mattered to me. It can’t be replaced. What I ‘needed’ / wanted from a marriage has gone. I’m struggling to articulate tbh.

How do you still believe that some people are good people?

It took some work, but I had to keep reminding myself that not everyone is like WS/stbx. Not everyone has cheated or lied to their loved ones. Am I 100% sure of that? No. That level of certainty has not come back since DDay, but I'm 99% sure with quite a few people, including my parents and my kid.

I suspect that I was naive before DDay. I used to believe that the majority of people in the world are good and mean well. For a long time after DDay, I struggled to believe that anymore, and I was suspicious of everyone and became deeply cynical. Some of that cynicism lingers, but the more steps I take to distance myself from WS/stbx, the easier it is to rebuild my faith in basic humanity. I still get very eye-rolly about popular ideas of romance and falling in love, but I'm no longer suspicious of everyone.

It's easy to slip into paranoia and bitterness. You have to work at countering those negative thoughts. My therapist worked on CBT with me: identify the negative thought, see if it's factually accurate, and if not, correct your distorted thinking. I apply that to situations where I have strong feelings that lead to absolute statements (like "people are terrible").

It sounds like you have detached pretty significantly from your spouse. There's probably a lot of cognitive dissonance between the decision to stay with him and your subconscious feelings around him. That conflict can really corrode your soul (ask me how I know), so please take care with your mental health.

I’m sorry you are struggling. But you are entitled to feel the way you do.

It’s almost 3 years since you joined SI and I hope that you have made some progress in healing. It appears as though you have but I get the impression the cheating spouse didn’t do much to help in that arena.

So it comes down to you and your life. I am going to assume you are choosing to remain married despite appearing as though you are not 100% happy w/ him.

You’ve done so much - your own healing, your own social life etc. so there is no suggestions needed there. It sounds like you are the best you can be and at max happiness given your decision to Reconcile.

Are there good people in the world? Absolutely. The people who contribute and support here at SI are good "anonymous" people. I’m certain you have good friends and connections etc. but you are in a position where it sounds like you don’t actually like your former cheating H anymore.

I am happily reconciled. Do I view my H differently? Hell yes! Will I forget he was kicking me to the curb for the OW? Nope. Will I forget the Evil person he became? Nope! Do I see his flaws that I overlooked for years? Yup.

But he has made amends and permanent changes and regrets his choices. He’s different in many ways, and so am I. The biggest change is I made myself my top priority whereas I used to put everyone else first.

I’m wondering why you choose to remain married to someone you don’t like. If I’m wrong about that I’m sorry, but that’s the take I get from reading your post.

You deserve to be happy. Not just settling.

It’s a hard one!!!! And it’s just another layer of bull shit that comes from infidelity. It’s makes us question what we know/think to be true and makes us question our ability to see what’s good or bad!

I’ve always been know for seeing the best in everyone, the soft boss at work, the naive daughter. I give to many chances to people who probably don’t deserve it. But for some reason I just can’t stop being this way. I’m also stubborn so just because my stupid WH did what he did I refuse to not see good in others.

What has changed for me though is that I’m not surprised when people are ‘bad’ anymore. My sons Christian Married with 3 kids principal got fired this year for having an affair - not surprised. Hugh Jackman, major Aussie heart throb, married to his older wife - gets divorced after years and straight away with a much younger woman - not surprised.

I think now I’ve been exposed to so much selfishness, lying, infidelity etc etc from so many different people and different walks of life that it just doesn’t surprise me. I now think that while most people are good people that everyone has the potential to be bad or make bad choices.

My marriage is now, is similar to yours but i never had my WH on as higher pedestal before his affair so maybe easier for me to accept/understand.

I hope you can find a sense of peace for yourself soon, it sounds like you are doing all the right things for you. But maybe just need to decide if you want your husband with you or not? Are there more positives of him being in your life than there are negatives?

I’m not sure exactly where or why I’m stuck but I’m clearly stuck!

I'd imagine that it's fear. That's normal. Divorce is hard and painful. And yet, it was the best choice I (we) made.

It seems rather obvious to me that you are stuck because you want to protect your kids. That's normal, too. Research has shown that children fare better in life coming from a broken home rather than continuing to live in one.

It took me six years to finally admit to myself what I'd known on d-day. Infidelity is a deal-breaker.

One day you'll smile and laugh and enjoy life again.

This is so much like you would have written my exact thoughts and feelings, it's almost spooky. I am also just over 3 years from DD and struggle with exactly the same issues.
I have a lot of trauma from childhood, so I put ALL of myself into this family/marriage thing. I loved and admired my H so much, and having a traditional family was the only thing that really meant anything to me. My WH's A truly broke me.

I find like you, I struggle with believing in the good in people now, something I never used to. I really, really thought, for 20 years, my H was one of the good ones. Turns out, he was not, at all. I can not see him like before, and I feel like our entire lives must have been a lie, because I was married to someone who did not exist. The way he's handled the aftermath so poorly, not able to handle his shame, I just like you, find cowardly and pathetic. I have lost so much respect for him.

I unfortunately have no good advice on how to cope with or change these feelings, as I am struggling with them myself. I just wanted to chime in and let you know someone else has the same struggle. For me these thoughts and feelings have led me to seriously consider D, or if I should D, even though it is not what I want. This might be the dealbreaker for me? Perhaps it's the same for you?

I too have considered divorce seriously. It would make my life harder on a day to day practical basis. It is no fault where I live and I’m the main earner too.

Is he trying? He makes bids for my attention most days. What I once thought was cute isn’t as cute anymore. I smile with my mouth but i doubt my eyes smile. He gets sad when he sees the big hugs my kids get, I used to hug him every day, kiss him everyday, tell him he smells nice, hug him in bed. Love spending time together. I’d tell him I loved him at least once a day. I have not said it for months. I’d call him affectionate names. Buy him surprises. Make him cards. Not anymore it feels fake and I struggle with being fake.

He doesn’t like being seen as a bad guy. Last month I was in the garage looking for a tool. It was broken and I asked him about it. He said he broke it when WE were arguing. Well the only real arguements we have had (where items were damaged) were post cheating. We may have disagreed previously but not on this scale. So I said ‘you mean it’s broken because you are a cheat’. Not my finest moment. But I didn’t break the item and we wouldn’t have been arguing at all had he not being a lying cheat. He hasn’t spoken about that comment since. He didn’t at the time and he won’t bring it up.

We watched some show on tv with cheats on it. He didn’t mention it, talk about it, offer to switch Channel etc. Not a huge issue as i just look for poor personality traits that explain why the character is a liar. But he is so incapable of discussing as he apparently feels unsafe. Yet it was his decision to screw up our marriage and family.

It’s a joke in my opinion. Cowardly.

After he was caught cheating he said he found it hard to talk to me. He would build up a story in his head and assume that’s what I meant or how i felt. So if I didn’t hug him the way he wanted hugging he created a story. Or if i didn’t wave goodbye he created a story. We have four kids and I work full time. After discovery We talked well for months but then he trickled truthed and I lost more respect and attraction to him. I’d spent a year trying and still he was lying to get his own way/protect himself/abuse me/not allow me to make an informed choice/see who he is etc etc.

But it’s the fact he has always said how much he loves me. I thought we felt the same about each other. I couldn’t have cheated on him as I’d have betrayed myself. My promises. My vows. My word. And who are you if you can betray yourself?

My history means some emotional stuff is hard for me to put into words. I find writing on here really difficult. I’m not very articulate (I do a technical job and have to be very clear and concise). On here I get jumbled as i find it so hard.

In the past 6 months on the couple of occasions I have called him out he says he gets anxiety and he can see from looking at me how hurt i am and how much i dislike him. Saying sorry regularly would be a start. But he doesn’t. Writing on here woukd be a start but he didn’t (and now I don’t think I want him to).

I can only assume from that he is happy feeling like he does and that he must get something from it on a relationship level. I however am not happy. I am under a grey cloud. Everything I do has a tinge of sadness to it.

Maybe he likes feeling like a victim. Maybe he gets off on knowing how sad I am. Who knows. It’s sad regardless and I think helps explain how he betrayed himself and destroyed our marriage.

It’s so weird how cheats think they are a prize (and he really thought he was a prize when he was caught). They really aren’t a prize. He was a prize to me when I met him. But as a cheat he’s tainted and seedy. If it wasn’t my life it would be fascinating to study.

We did marriage counselling before I found out - when he was saying he hated me and it was my fault because I was an awful person and he had been unhappy ‘for years’ (also known as abusing me and rewriting history). I’m not sure I even want to try counselling again. Do I want to fix it? Of course. I’d love to. O don’t want to feel like this day in and day out. Do I think we can? I’m not sure I am able to respect someone who has no self respect. I’m not sure if he can get past me giving him anxious feelings - and him even saying this makes me roll my eyes and increases my contempt.

Do I reread Gottman? With him?
All your help is appreciated. My children deserve better - they are lovely people - and I have no desire to meet anyone new and they don’t deserve some weird blended family situation.

It’s a mess.

Misery - dm me to chat if it helps (and if you can on here). Misery loves company so they say

Abcd89: Your post above is epic. You so eloquently describe the whole situation. If I were to have a comparison checklist with what you just posted, the only line I couldn't say "Yes" to, still today 23 years after D-Day 1, is your last paragraph (because I never had children.) I do think we must have married the same personality type!

And your referring to the craziness of him perhaps getting a sick pay-off from your pain? Hate to say it that is what I too eventually came to realize. These are abusive men wrapped up in a Mr. Great Guy suit. Don't blame yourself for being fooled; my passive-aggressive WH had everybody fooled for most of his life. Including the mother who sexually abused him and who hated to see him leave home and grow up or marry. He had so deeply buried his childhood rage against her that we slowly revealed the roots of this all in MC. At first I felt sympathy for his pain. I wanted to believe healing that childhood wound would change how he related to me - for the better. The trouble is he has never effectively gotten rid of it, whatever that would take, so I've observed many thousands of times over the last 23 years how he seems to get some kind of vicarious satisfaction from hurting his wife, (the cardboard cutout im his mind of The Mom) which he almost always denies whever it's been pointed out to him Truly sad.

No, most people aren't this messed up.

I’ve been following this thread and I’d like to point out that while the betrayed (BS) spouse is the inevitable victim, there seems to be a connection between the wife and the cheater’s mother.

I had no idea my H had such resentment towards me. However during his midlife crisis affair I was told all the things wrong with me, our marriage, our life etc.

I’m fairly certain his affair started because he was angry with me for holding him accountable for something too.

They often view the AP with a false sense of reality. You know, that whole soulmate crap and "destined to be together" crap they tell each other.

Except we the spouse are standing in their way. Blocking them from true love 💕 or their addiction to the affair etc.

They subconsciously view their spouse as their parent. Instead of addressing their issues or pain or bad childhood, they choose to cheat to assuage their pain.

How sad.

I dont think there is a betrayed on this site that has not gone through a period of having a jaundiced view of others ranging from cynical/pessimistic to complete nihilism.

That said, this can be assuaged over time. I can tell you that I saw people through some very dark lenses post betrayal for quite a long time and after decades of recovery and healing have landed on what I call "realism tinged with optimism".

Keep in mind though, that I am no longer with my wayward and have been married to a wonderful, faithful, loyal and loving wife for decades now. She too is a survivor of a terrible betrayal. Thank God we found one another and have brought a ton of healing to each other. Shes a big part of why a smidgen of optimism now exists in my life.

Your decision about your WH aside, faith that there are still good people out there can grow back. I am living oroof.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 5:01 PM, Thursday, December 4th]

Abcd89, I could have written every word of your post. Mine was also avoidant and continues to be so. He will not do something unpleasant or uncomfortable unless he is forced to. It makes R very very hard, because what the BS needs to see is proactive remorse. If your WS is not an active participant and taking massive amounts of initiative, then you end up thinking of him as a coward, and you struggle to like or respect him. This is the early stage of contempt, and if you've read Gottman before, you know that's a warning bell.

I don't think my WS ever got off on seeing me be upset, but I think subconsciously he was recreating the atmosphere that he grew up in. The1stWife's analysis is spot on: the wife gets put in the position of the mother. Not only do they make us responsible for their feelings, I think they create a situation in which we end up taking on personality traits of their mother. In my case, I was nothing like my MIL, but she was also horribly betrayed by her ex-husband (WS's dad; though it wasn't cheating), and for a long time after, she would get very emotional, break down easily, etc. WS grew up with her as his sole-custody single mom, and maybe it brought a sick sense of familiarity to have me need the kind of emotional support that his mother demanded from him (*not* a healthy way to raise a child).

But all the empathy in the world doesn't mean you can live with him if he's going to avoid his problems. Once you start recognizing these patterns of destructive behavior, it's hard to ignore them. Unless he can confront his issues and truly work on changing his behavior, I think your unhappiness will keep building. In my case, I decided it was better to leave than to let my negative feelings about him corrode me from the inside.

You are doing damage to yourself if you're building resentment and anger while he is avoiding conflict. I'll also say that your kids are likely observing the physical distance between you two and the simmering anger. Mine noticed but didn't say anything until after we told her we were splitting up. Yes, they don't deserve any of this, but they are also subconsciously absorbing these patterns, and I don't know if that's any better.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 1:35 AM, Friday, December 5th]

And I totally agree with NoThanksForTheMemories, too.

Isn't this interesting: there are three BWs right here who can describe their WH's traits word for word the same? That cannot be a coincidence. There really are some patterns here with what psychologists call "transference." I think it isn't fixable from the outside. We all have probably said things like "you remind me of my mother or father when you act like that."

But this goes way deeper than simply pointing out to the beloved life partner any traits which are negative reminders of a parental flaw. This is like "replacing one ______ with the another ______," as if they can only see the original version. Psychologists have a description of it: stunted emotional development. Typical for normal human infants, until at some early growth stage they start to recognize the person (the mother figure, usually) is not the same fixed "object" as their negative momentary behavior. However, with certain mental illnesses, like "borderline personality disorder," or with severe child abuse, this normal cognitive maturity never fully develops. The mental ability to separate person from behavior gets stunted somewhere, and it gets stopped at "all ____ I am close to are the same." Stereotyping. Depersonalizing.

Also, as I have come to see it, this is due to something basic in their opinion of the opposite sex: a deep-seated DISREGARD or DISRESPECT for the opposite sex's individual humanity. It could have started with anger and infant helplessness, but regardless of the source, when I look through the lens of what it takes to have a recovering relationship after betrayal, the real hope killer is lack of respect. Like they feel "I love you, but I don't really respect you." I also think this disrespectful attitude is passed from parent to child by parental modelling.

I came to this realization after years of contrasting how my SAWH related to me as a person with how people I worked with (or worked for) generally related to me. Then I'd ask myself "If it would cost him a promotion at work, would he blow this off like he does here at home if he were asked or expected to do it?" And I could see how hard he tried to make sure that never happened!

Fear of consequences is one driver of respect, but it shouldn't be the only one.

I’ve pondered this all night. The does he get off on me being sad. And I may ask him. He may lie.

We were pretty young when we met. I think it’s more that he hasn’t had time to grow up maybe. His family are really nice. No real drama, everyone gets on. No jealousy or animosity. If the family had been too much I wouldn’t have married him. I would be friends with any of them if I met them another way.

Childhood- I reckon was really normal. Holidays, fun, education, experiences, sports etc.

Sexual experimentation and access to porn- this may have been too young. And may have had a lasting impact.

To be honest I think he may have had life a bit too easy maybe. He certainly likes dopamine hits. He has made reckless decisions. But he never had to worry his family wouldn’t be there for him- they would.

I can see how and why people get to the point where they think cheating is a good idea. Or at least an acceptable idea. But I can also see how that affects their integrity, honesty etc.

I think he lied a lot as a child and teenager. Maybe to go to parties or smoke cigarettes etc. His siblings were probably better behaved. Maybe his parents allowed or told ‘white lies’ - not sure. I think he brought this into our marriage.

I’m very firm about lying, honesty and integrity with my kids. We talk about it a lot and I praise their honesty and we discuss how others being dishonest affects how people see them and how honesty can lead to a better outcome. The boy who cried wolf but in real life. For example if they forget to do homework and realise before class I say go straight to your teacher. Explain and apologise. Say you will do it that evening and email it over as evidence. It’s worked and now they are happy to talk to a teacher about things. I’ve seen them grow as people. They know people in their school will dislike them and that’s okay, but you must stand for your beliefs (which can also change) and if people don’t like you that is fine as You will also find people who respect your integrity. I want them to like themselves.

So this has helped me in a way to. Just not respect my lying husband.

Do I reread Gottman? With him?
All your help is appreciated. My children deserve better - they are lovely people - and I have no desire to meet anyone new and they don’t deserve some weird blended family situation.

There is just no way to force a person to be a good partner. Probably in the same way that you can’t put a gun to the head of an artist to force them to make a masterpiece, love from our partners needs to come from their own free, creative heart. If they won’t, they won’t. I can think of only one story on SI where a WS authentically came around after many years, Captain Rogers.

Your kids certainly do deserve better, but for them to have gotten it it required both their parents looking out for them. You can’t make up for what their father denied them.

How do you still believe that some people are good people?

It’s getting increasingly difficult these days. Finding out the person who I thought was my "ride or die" is in truth a "low integrity POS" didn’t help matters.

I used to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume positive intent. Now I am much more wary and feel people must "earn" my trust instead of it being "freely given". The older I get, the more people fail that test. Is it me being a jaded, suspicious old fart or are there more shitbags these days? I guess 2 things can be true.

I also have a VERY strong aversion to being "fucked over". Could this be because my wife did that in the literal sense for over 20 years. Yeah, could be. It sure seems people are more apt to lie these days. I can be understanding. If you say you are going to do something, DO it. If you can’t or won’t, say THAT. The number of businesses and services I deal with now that run the gamut from not even bothering to respond to over promising and under delivering is beyond my comprehension. In years past, I would give people multiple chances. Now, one strike and you’re out.

I had been seeing the woman who cuts my hair for several years. She double booked me, made some BS excuse, didn’t apologize. That was the end of her. Same with the garage I took my cars to for 15 years. Amazon missed my one day delivery I paid for so I went to the trouble of getting my $2.50 credited. And on and on. Yes, it creates more work for me. But also a sense of satisfaction I won’t tolerate being "chumped" like my wife did to me.

On the other hand, I have a core group of friends I have known since 1st grade (that’s 56 years now). They are my "ride or dies". Their families are my families. They are "good" people.

Good people are still out there. Just most days, I wonder if any new ones are being made…….

In response to the question about whether to read Gottmann w/ the cheater, my experience (pretty well known here) was to not lift a finger towards R.

I was very clear in telling my H I was D him and starting mediation right after the New Year (just 3 weeks away).

He begged me to give him another chance and would not let up. Finally one day I got so angry I told him he could do whatever he wanted, but I am not helping you R. I was polite and pretended all was "ok" in front of the kids but I hardly spoke to him.

Somehow in 30 days he did enough work on his own (to start to make amends) that my therapist pointed out that maybe I should give it 30 more days. My counselor pointed out the things he was doing (as I was not interested in any of it because I planned to D him).

Long story short, those changes were made of his own doing. And they are permanent because he finally realized how his behavior was disrespectful to me. And that is the foundation of a successful R.

I didn’t tell him what I needed or wanted. After 25 years of M if he couldn’t figure that out then I was moving on. Because I was not going to be his "parent" for another damn second.

I’m no longer going to be his "support" person and remind him of things or rescue him when he forgets his wallet or keys or whatever. While he travelled all over the world for decades - I never complained and did whatever was needed to keep things running smoothly.

But as if the year of his affair, his excessive travel basically stopped. So I no longer needed to go above and beyond (which was appreciated) but clearly undeserved.

BTW I still don’t do his laundry and it’s been 12 years from his affair. He also does more chores like grocery shopping etc. I gave 110% for decades. I was taken for granted. Lesson learned.

Or as attorneys often say "duly noted" 😂

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:22 PM, Thursday, December 4th]